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Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Subject: FILE: MUFON article - Field of Schemes - Crop circles Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1993 04:04:14 GMT Message-ID: <1993Feb11.040414.7851@bilver.uucp> Lines: 860 (7063) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:18 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS 1/9 St: 7174> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924992 MUFONET-BBS GROUP - MUFONET-BBS NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ COORDINATED INFORMATION EXCHANGE - HOUSTON UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The following article originally appeared in the January '93 HUFON Report, the newsletter of the Houston UFO Network. Article provided by HUFON for posting by The MufoNet-BBS Network. ------------------------------------------------------------ Crop Circle Update - FIELD OF SCHEMES I By Bill Eatwell In the November 1992 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal, there is an article by Jim Schnabel titled, "Confessions Of A Crop Circle Spy". Well, as always, there is more to this story than is being published. For one thing, there are alleged inaccuracies in Schnabel's telling of his side of an a recorded telephone interview that was to be published in the journal of the Centre For Crop Circle Studies known as The Circular which is edited by George Wingfield. The interview was mysteriously pulled from the magazine before distribution. In October, while attending George Wingfield's Dallas, Texas lecture (see HUFON Report, Nov., 1992 issue), George gave me, in strict confidence, a copy of the Schnabel interview that had been pulled. George told me that his publisher in England, Michael Green, had pulled the interview from publication while he was on his lecture tour here in America. I was told to "sit" on my copy unless given the go ahead to publish the suppressed interview in the HUFON Report if George was unable to resolve the problem when he returned to England. On Saturday,(12/5) I received a call from a friend alerting me that a new publication in Dallas, the Texas Mufon Newsletter, had just published George's suppressed interview. I immediately called George in England and asked permission to reprint the same article in HUFON Report. I not only got the OK, but received the next day, by fax a copy of George's soon to be published reply to the above Journal article by Schnabel. Since not all HUFON members subscribe to the Mufon UFO Journal, I will carefully summarize Schnabel's article below. Included in this Crop Circle Update are both the suppressed interview, and George's faxed reply to Schnabel's article which should appear in the December Mufon UFO Journal. According to George, the following (suppressed) interview was made and recorded by Dr. Armen Victorian (AKA: Henry Azadehdel, Dr. Alan Jones, and for this interview, Cassava Ntumba). George says that there was no time lapse between Victorian's prior call to a Robert Irving, and Jim Schnabel. Why is this important? Because, Schnabel claims that Irving called him to warn of Victorian's question line and the two of them conspired to lead Victorian, as Ntumba, down the old proverbial false disinformation trail. George also told me that someone (he knows who) sent a copy of the "pulled" interview to Schnabel so he could fashion a quick cover story and, somehow, persuade the Mufon UFO Journal to print it. After you have read the following, I will have more at the end..... THE SUPPRESSED CIRCULAR INTERVIEW Subject of The Circular interview in this issue is Jim Schnabel. He has written several newspaper articles on the circles beginning with an item in the Washington Post last year which espoused the cause of orthodox Meadenism. More recently he collaborated with Robert Irving to produce a piece for the Independent Magazine in which it was implied that many of the major pictograms in the mid-Wiltshire area were hoaxed by the UBI group. Although UBI has faked a few minor formations (of which CCCS has full details) suggestions of major hoaxing by them --at, say, Alton Barnes--are known to be untrue and this article can only be seen as part of Schnabel and Irving's campaign to make people think that the pictograms are all hoaxes and promote the highly dubious claims of Doug & Dave. Unlike Doug & Dave, Schnabel is an accomplished circlefaker and in July he came second in The Cerealogist's Circlemaking Competition at West described then as the "Master of Grapeshot," he did not deny having had previous circlemaking experience. Ostensibly Schnabel is a student doing a post-graduate course in sociology at Bath University. Despite this his telephone number is on the Oxford exchange and his address in Bath (where Robert Irving lives) is secret. He usually gives his address as c/o Lincoln College, Oxford, although at the beginning of l992 Lincoln College stated that Schnabel no longer had any connection with them. Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7054) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:19 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 2/9 St: 7055> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924993 In the following candid interview Schnabel reveals his role as a paid disinformation agent working for an unnamed western inrelligence organisation. From what he says, one is made aware of the extent and determination of the continuing campaign to rubbish the circles and discredit the researchers. This campaign is but a continuation of the Doug & Dave scam with different faces, different players. The "interviewer" in this case is Armen Victorian, who has written for The Circular previously and who introduces himself as Kasaba Ntumba. Unaware of Ntumba's true identity, Schnabel gradually opens up to this apparently sympnthetic caller. It is only fair to say that Schnabel now denies everything which is contained herein and telephoned me some days later in a state of scarcely suppressed agitation to claim that he had just been ~winding up ~ Victorian (whom he had never met or talked to, apart from a very brief introductory phone call a short while before on the same day). Readers of The Circular will have to judge for themselves whether or not this is the case. One may justifiably ask why someone would ever reveal well- hidden secrets to a total stranger at such short notice. I can only say that Victorian has achieved similar coups time and again in speaking, by telephone to top intelligence officers in the U.S.A., in South Africa and in other countries and these people have frequently regretted what they have let slip. If Schnabel had been "winding up" Victorian, it is inconceivable that he would then ring me up and come clean. Apart from anything else he never normally calls me, and of all the hoaxes I 've known --not just circular ones-- no hoaxer has ever once sprung forward saying "it's all a hoax, don't believe a word I just said." Double bluff? Well, if you believe that, you'll believe anything ! The acid test, of course, is the tape recording itself rather than the transcript. Listen to this and, as with the recent "Dianagate" tapes, one soon discards the notion that the responses are contrived or false. It is to be regretted that information has been obtained in this way but in the face of a ruthless and sustained campaign to deceive the public and CCCS this is amply justified. For people who scoff at the idea that intelligence agencies have any interests in the circles phenomerlon, I can only say that when in Washington, D. C., last April I was taken specifically tomeet four charming gentlemen from the CIA who made no secret about their profession and also their interest in the circles and the UFO phenomenon. This is entirely consistent with the content of this interview. Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7055) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:20 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 3/9 St: 7054<>7056 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924994 [Telephone rings] Sch: Hello. Vic: Mr Schnabel? Sch: Yes. Vic: This is Mr Ntumba. Sch: Oh, hi. Hallo. Vic: I'm sorry to bother you at Ihis time of the night. I was...now then, I was speaking to your friend. Sch: Sorry? Vic: I was, I was speaking to your friend a few hours ago, Mr Robert Irving. Sch: Oh yeah, Rob Irving, yeah. Vic: Thal's right; and I understand that you won the second prize in proving that, eventually, these, eh, circles are not reaily what the others think are made by 7-feet green men. And they are very much in an earth bound situation. Sch: Yes, yes, I wouldn't have to prove anything really. Vic: My congratulations - [laughs] - you did a good job. Sch: Thank you very much, thank you very much. Vic: Have you published anything? Sch: Yes, eh, I have published a few things.... Vic: In magazines or newspapers - or private or.. ? Sch: Well, yeah, I published something just this past weekend. Vic: Ah! Sch: In the Independent Magazine - that was a collaboration with.... Vic: Hey! You have an American accent! Sch: Sorry? Vic: You have an American accent. Sch: Yes, I'm originally from the States, that's true. Vic: Which part? Sch: I'm from the East Coast. Vic: East Coast. New York part? Sch: In Virginia. Vic: Virginia, a beautiful part of the country. Sch: Yes it is, thank you very much. Vic: Beautiful part of the country. One thing. . . One thing that Mr Irving said to me that I was a bit puzzled. He said that he works at a group of intelligence . . ., or something like that. Sch: Oh, he did? Vic: He did. Sch: [Laughs] He, um... Vic: When? Sch: He sometimes, eh. . ., says things that he shouldn't say, but, eh... Vic: What? Did he work genuinely with an intelligence... Sch: Sorry - say that again. Vic: Did he actually work with intelligence in the past? Sch: Well, I really couldn't comment on anything like that. I mean I think you'd have to ask him. Vic: ' Cos he was saying to me that - you know...What did he say to me?... It was something that mystified me, to be perfectly honest with you. Eh, you know, he said that it pays, you know, that exactly what, you know, he said to me, to do what he is doing, and he works with a western intelligence... , he said to me. Sch: Yeah. Vic: And he said that man doesn't live on bread alone. Sch: Yeah, well, you know, I really couldn't comment on any of that, I mean, ...eh.... Vic: Do you know, if that's the case that he is actually working with.. ? Sch: Well, I wouldn't want to say anything on the record obviously. Vic: [Laughs.] Well I don't blame you, can I? But I mean is he. .? What I'm trying to say is you know....Look, you've handled these cases for several....sometimes people say things, as you've said yourself. Is it saying it in order to create credence and mystery or you know this....? because if it is the case, it backfires doesn't it, because that makes the man...you know what I'm trying to say. Sch: No, I'm not clear Vic: All I'm saying is....if that's not the case, the man doesn't work,.so why is he making all this, you know...statements, you see what I'm saying, it makes him look, you know, a person who doesn't have any credit in his opinion - do you see what I'm trying to say? Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7056) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:21 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 4/9 St: 7055<>7057 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924995 Sch: Well.... Vic: It's like me saying I'm the king..... Sch: Well, I don't know.... Vic: Well, it's like me claiming.... Sch: I don't know what he has said but I mean he does have some connections in....l don't know, but I don't think thats something that either of us want to talk about. Vic: But you know - there is a story... Sch: I don't quite know who you are, so I don't want to talk about it in too much detail. Vic: No, but I've been reading some of these magazines they have issued about groups and these articles about the 7-feet green men... groups put out that's there's intelligence in it, etc., etc., and now Mr Irving says that to me. You see I was a bit taken back. Is there any interest from the intelligence ,part in it as well? Sch: Sorry, intelligence....? Vic: Any interest from the intelligence part in the phenomenon? Sch: Well, does he have an interest in the intelligence? ... I'm not sure quite what... Vic: What I'm trying to tell.... it's my bad English, I'm sorry. Sch: About M15, or are you talking about UFOs? Vic: Anything...any government intelligence group.... Sch: No, no, it's clear to me now. Yes, well I mean....off the record, I mean I think a number of agencies throughout the world have taken an interest in this. Vic: Well, that we've heard, haven't we? Sch: It is potentially a very explosine phenomenon. Vic: I mean, can they exploit it, how can they exploit the phenomenon? Sch: Well, I mean, I think...l think some of us are concerned that the phenomenon may - it's difficult to explain, but.... Vic: Try me! Sch: We believe there is certainly something very sinister about what's going on - eh..., I don't know whether you're a Christian man or not....? Vic: Christian... of course I am. Sch: But some of us feel quite.... Vic: I'm a Catholic. Sch: Well, yes, yes, so am I. And some of us feel concerned that, eh.... Vic: Some arms of the government are doing something... psychological warfare, or psychotronic weaponry, you know. Sch: We think that sometimes that a little bit of intrigue . . sometimes is necessary in cases as serious as this, um, and sometimes measures have to be taken, but I think, I mean, overall, I think that the phenomenon is something which we think will disappear very shortly. Vic: [Bated breath!!] How, how, how, how, how, how? I mean, I'm sorry, but I'm just curious - it's mind-boggling what you're saying! But how, how do you know that will happen? Sch: [Sigh] Well, we think that it, that people will no longer take notice of it, I mean, it may continue but, eh, it.... Vic: But why do you say phenomenon? You proved that this is man-made, if it's a man-made... how could it be a phenomena? Or am I in the dark, or I've missed something somewhere? Sch: Well, I'm, I'm, I think some of them are definitely man-made; I mean definately. Vic: But, so, but so, we are suggesting that there's also a part to it that is genuine? Sch: I think there is a part which is entirely sinister and I'm not sure how genuine it is or whether it's made by people but it's something very sinister and I think it's something that.... Vic: Are we talking about mugic, dark powers? Sch: Possibly, yes.. and I think that it...hang on, I'm getting a bit. . . Vic: It' s intriguing, when we say dark powers arewe talking about... sort of Satan and that sort of thing, or are we talking about actually....? Sch: AbsolutelY! Vic: I see, I see, so there isn't any sort of military implication or the test of, of weaponry or anything of that sort, which is sinister? Sch: Oh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that.. l think it's a very complex issue though....... Vic: Are we talking about the part of the military wing who's under the brainwashing, or whatever, of the sinister forces who are doing this - you know, making it a bit more complex? Sch: Well, well it's very difficult to explain to vou - to explain the structure of some of these organisations, but...... Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7057) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:21 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 5/9 St: 7056<>7058 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924996 Vic: For example? Give me an example. Sch: Why? I couldn't go into detail but, eh, basically it's something which is concerning people worldwide and have pooled their resources, worldwide, and are involved..... Vic: How about the British Government? Are they also... ? Sch: Well, yes. The German Government, the American government, the Vatican as well. Vic: How about Robert? Does Robert have anything with any of this to help them along with it, to determine what is going on? Sch: I wouldn't want to comment on the record or anything like that. Vic: Of course not. Sch: Definitely, you know....as you seem to be sympathetic to what we're saying..... Vic: Of course! What you're saying makes me worried. He is definitely on the good side Sch: He is.... he is one of our best people, yes. Vic: And he's helping the governments to determine which faction is doing this? Sch: Yes, it's very... extremely sensitive, sensitive work as you can probably imagine..... Vic: Is it...eh...now, let's see, are we talking about military, or are we talking about intelligence, are we talking about the negative side, you see what I ' m trying to say? Sch: It's not quite a military thing but there are elements of military intelligence which have loaned resources. Vic. Ahhhh! ! We are talking about people who have had a career, they've left their career, they have corporations, etc., etc., they are developing some kind of weaponry and these are the testing ground. Sch: No, no, no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't go into that, it's much more of a spiritual warfare type of magic, I think.... Vic: And they trying to exploit the populus, I mean, what are they trying to achieve? This is what I'm trying to determine. Sch: I think they are trying to bring about changes in world consciousness and for evil; for, for, you know, not for good and, eh, there are some of us who are concerned about this, and would like to see this new trend stopped. Vic: Is there any positive element in the government who are supporting people like yourself or Robert or anybody else for that mattter? Sch: We have support, yes, we have support at the highest levels. Vic: That's marvelous -is it British government ....or... forgive me, I'm not trying to be a nosy parker. Sch: It involves several countries and as I say..... Vic: Are we talking NATO allies or are we talking about........... ? Sch: NATO ?...it's not at the NATO level, but it's Germany involved, and this country, and the United States... the Vatican as well. Vic: I see...I... are we talking about...? Sch: It's actually, it in volves a supernational organisation which I will not name. Vic: [Gasp]Supernational !!! Sch: Supernational organisation. Vic: Oh, good God ! Sch: Which is....? Vic. This is above my head. Sch: Which has ties to these countries, and organisations. Vic: Are we talking, for example trilateral, that sort of thing? Sch: I wouldn't want to get into any specifics. Vic: Do you have any information...'? I'm speculating... Sch: It's something that is very dangerous to talk about, and I hope, you will, you know... Vic: I appreciate it, I appreciate it...I mean, is it a mission that you volunteered or is it something that you actually commission people ....I mean how do they...? Sch: It's...we are quite committed to it, put it that way. It's not a sense of duty but it's also..... Vic: How about the other religions, does that come into it or is it only Christian religion or just Christians committed to it? eh, I mean Buddhism, or Judaism or Islam .... you know? Sch: I don't have a high enough overview of the whole situation to know. There may be some others involved. Vic: And the information that you gather is passed on to the higher-ups in order to be filtered out and deductions have to be taken, obviously; that should be the case? Sch: Yes, yes.. we are not just feeding information, we are taking active measures. Vic: I hope they pay for what you've done, for the time and all the things that you put in to it. Sch: Well, yes...it's only natural that one should be reimbursed. Vic: That goes without saying. Sch: One has to live, you know. Vic: That is absolutely true. How many are there? Is there any way I can get, sort of, you know, involved? Sch: Well, I'll tell you, if you can, um, give me some information, I understand you would probably want to do it on a very confidential level... some information or...I could have someone possibly give you a call or visit you or something. Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7058) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:22 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 6/9 St: 7057<>7059 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924997 Vic: Who, who? Is it Mr. Irving who would visit me? Sch: Oh no, it would not be Mr. Irving, it would not be Mr. Irving. You know ...possibly... Vic: Are you sure your telephone is not tapped? Sch: My telephone? [laughs] No,no, my telephone would not be tapped! My telephone is a secure phone. Vic: Give me your address, Mr. Schnabel, please. Sch: Um, well, ...[hesitation]... all right, it's, it's, um.... you can reach me, care of... I have to give you a sort of a safe, a safe box... Vic: Of course! Sch: . . . because I don't actually live here, but it's: c/o Lincoln College. Vic: LincolnCollege? OK,which school in Lincoln! Sch: Lincoln College, Oxford. Vic: Oxford ? Ah ha! Sch: That's all you need to do, just: care of...To Jim Schnabel, c/o Lincoln College, Oxford. Vic: I would be able to reach you there? Sch: Yes. Vic: OK. And if I actually wanted to put anything in it I would be hopefully visited by somebody? Sch: Sorry? Vic: I would be briefed about how I can start, you know, etc., etc.? Sch: Yes, I mean... if you give me some information........ [This section is intentionally omitted.] A second call is then made on the following day: Vic: Mr Schnabel? Sch: Yes. Vic: Hello, this is Ntumba speaking. I put something into the post for you today. Sch: Ah, good, good. Vic: It will be with you if all goes well, hopefully by Tuesday - you know how well your mail works... Sch: No, I think today is a bank holiday, so there won't be any mail through. Vic: Well, I had first class stamps so I did that... Now, I remember when this, eh, ******* came here, who...you know when you said to me... has been a very good source.. there was another man... Sch: Excuse me, just let me pull the phone into my room here to be private. Vic: OK, of course. [ Very long pause ensues] Sch: Yes, right. Vic: Is it better? Sch: Yes. Vic: OK. You remember last time when we were speaking you said that, you know, ******* has been a good source with regard to promoting the cause. Sch: Yes, yes. Vic: I remember that when ******* came here there was also another person. Sch: Yes. Vic: Do you know who he was? Sch: His name is #####. Vic: Ahhhh! He was very quiet. Is he also working in the same way? Sch: I wouldn't want to speak about further things, I mean it's extremely sensitive, I really shouldn't have told you all that I've told you already...and unfortunately at the moment I'm quite busy with some things, but um, do send the material and perhaps... l'll tell you here's um, a ...I'm trying to think. Will you ... [massive hesitation]l...oh, no, no, if you send the material to Lincoln College; send some indication of where you can be reached. Vic: O.K. Sch: We can discuss things further, someone else will contact you, and eh, it won't be me, it will be a much more senior person in the organisation and then subsequently, eh, you know, if things work out well and more information can be shared with you. Vic: The reason that I mentioned about that gentleman ... because he was talking almost on a similar line, you know, that you were talking in many ways... do you see what I'm saying? Sch: I really couldn't comment further on him, I wouldn't want to compromise his position. Vic: I see ! Well, I hope that, you know...that the mission will be acomplished and that, you know, after all this time. Has there been any good witness.. ? Sch: We have no doubt of success. Vic: Well I'm delighted to hear that. Now, about the payment. How do we claim for the expenses, etc., you know, how do we go about this usually? I mean, how do you go about that? Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7059) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:23 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 7/9 St: 7058<>7060 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924998 Sch: Well, that will be arranged and explained to you if, if, if...[mumble, mumble] Vic: Is it on a monthly basis? Sch: If you are found to be a suitable candidate -- it's extremely generous, don't worry about that. Vic: OK. You know there is a great deal of travelling backward and forward, you know, as you are involved in this... Sch: You will be expected to travel internationally. Vic: Oh, what .... that's fascinating, that is absolutely fascinating. What sort of data, you know, they would be expecting from my side to be gathered, to be collected for the cause? Sch: It woutd be not only gathering data but also taking active measures, possibly conducting disinformation campaigns and other measures. Vlc: In order to safeguard the initial whatever it is, isn't it, the ultimate goal. Sch: Yes. it's extremely complex, I mean I think you were... you touched upon it briefly last night when you mentioned the weapon... Vic: I was very much impressed..... Sch: The weapons systems, I mean there's the element of the weapons testing and there's the second element of the, eh, attempt to use the phenomenon of the circles to discredit the New Age movement and other such movements. Vic: Ahhhh ! I see. Sch: It's extremely complex and much more will be explained to you if it's appropriate at a further time. Vic: Of course, of course..... Sch: Don't worry about payment, I mean, it's very generous..... Vic: No, that's not my worry...... Sch: It's extremely strenuous work and...the organisation realises that, um, you know, sometimes people become burned out after a few years but usually they've made enough money that they are able to retire - you know, after a few years anyway.... it's very generous. VIC: That's facscinating...and the gentleman, or the person rather, who would be meeting me should my you know, whatever become serious, would he be, or would she be, an American or would she be English or different... you know? Sch: I'm not sure yet which organisation, I mean, that's not my decision - which person in the organisation, I mean, that's not my decision. It could be someone from almost. Vic: But, but, I mean what is the organisation that I would be dealing with? Sch: Well, I think that will all be explained to you. Vic: Oh, I see. When, if and when, I'm taken in. Sch: Yes. [Break] Vic: How about Colin Andrews' group - do you have any section with a remit in Colin Andrews' group or not? Sch: We have, eh...we have people in every group. Vic: Fascinating, fascinating, that's absolutely, you know, it's interesting to hear. As I said earlier, the machinery is already into the post so the best thing is I wait to hear further from you. Sch: Yes, OK, good Vic: OK. Thank you very much indeed for your time again. Sch: God bless. Vic: God bless you too. Bye bye. The following summary of "Confession Of A Crop Circle Spy" by James Schnabel is very brief as the original document in the November 1992 Mufon UFO Journal is five pages long. Dennis Stacy, the Journal's Editor, begins the article with a half page introduction. Stacy's comments center around the thought process regarding both UFO's and crop circles and how they are perceived and possible related. Also, he notes the lessons to be learned when hoaxing, fear of government agents and conspiracies and, as this article painfully illuminates, a wide spread paranoia begins to grip all those individuals who are intimately, and publicly, involved with both phenomena. ( Note that James Schnabel, by himself, won 2nd prize in the circle making competition in England, at West Wycome, July 11-12, 1992...He also wrote an article on "The Art of Circular Science" for The Cerealogist, No. 7, Harvest 1992, which will be available from the HUFON library in Jan. 93.) Continued...... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7060) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:23 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 8/9 St: 7059<>7061 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e924999 James Schnabel begins his article by describing numerous unnamed crop circle researchers as "vociferous spycriers". The story that follows is what Schnabel claims happened when in a light-hearted moment he suggested to an inquirer, "Cassave Ntumba", that "yes, it was all true, he was indeed a spy". The phone interviews actually began with Ntumba calling Rob Irving, a photographer who had worked with Schnabel on a London newspaper article about one of the circle-making groups active in Wiltshire. Schnabel says that Irving recognized Ntumba as Henry Azadehdel, recalling Henry as the person who authored a story last year about Doug Bower and Dave Chorley being spies.(remember the Doug and Dave scam?) Irving reportedly recorded the conversation, and immediately afterwards called Schnabel and a "spy-chase" plan was conceived. There were several lengthy phone conversations between Irving and Ntumba, and Schnabel and Ntumba. Schnabel summarizes most of these but adds something to the first conversation that I could not find in the suppressed interview. The "Plan", as Schnabel outlines to Ntumba, "was meant (a) to divert attention from the ultra- secret Stars Wars weapons testing which caused the circles". Unless I missed something, this was not in the original text of the Circular Interview. As Schnabel unfolds his story, he begins using single letter references to various individuals leaving the reader to only "guess" as to their identity. One example is: "So I telephoned W and asked him to relay to the elusive zadehdel that the whole thing had been a send up. I hope-I said-that you have enough sense of humor to see that this was all done in fun. To which W responded: well I'm not sure I do, Jim. I mean, I wouldn't be in the lease bit surprised if you were a spy". Other lettered identities in the story are: R, E, G, F, T, D, U, M and G, C and his good friend B. The "Plan", as Schnabel calls it, received much notoriety following the Ntumba interview. The worst unmasking according to Schnabel occurred at the UFO meet at the Leeds Civic Theater, in England, where Armen Victorian (aka: Ntumba) was to present taped conversations of international debunkers. The taped interview between Victorian and Schnabel was played causing a confrontation in which Schnabel says he attempted to convince the audience that it had all been a put-on, a sham. Schnabel narrates only a portion of the recording in his story. When I compared the two recorded conversations, some sentences were not word for word. This indicates editing by one or the other writer. Nothing important appeared missing in the two recorded dialogs. The story ends with Schnabel stating his personal feelings of the events, his believed vindication, and his relief that W's article had been pulled from the printers, and the article detailing The Plan removed. However, Irving and Schnabel believe that there still remains a "hint of unsolved mystery" to their acts as one question still remains with the cerealogists: "How had we known so much?" As you can tell, the crop circle hoaxing issue is about to come to a nasty head. Personally, I believe that there needs to be more articles published on those persons doing valid crop circle research and less on those interfering with the phenomenon. I spoke with our new contributor, Rosemary Ellen Guiley and discovered that she had moved again. A copy of her Center's report will be sent to me as soon as it is completed. Meanwhile, Rosemary faxed the following comments for our latest column. Her new address, phone and fax numbers are included for publication per her request. Center For North American Crop Circle Studies Director: Rosemary Ellen Guiley Address: P.O. Box 4766, Lutherville, MD 21094 Phone: 410-628-1522 / Fax: 410-628-1524 December 7, 1992 Rosemary writes: Far too much attention was devoted this summer in crop circle circles to allegations concerning disinformation, conspiracy and hoaxing. Individuals alleged to be the masterminds of a plot to debunk circles were given more credit than they deserved by noise made by some cereologists. The unfortunate result was to shift attention away from solving the mystery of the phenomenon to focus on personalities and name calling. As for the circles themselves, in England they manifested in as mysterious shapes as before, with the signature of Goddess stronger than ever: snails, crescent moons, the knot of Isis (resembling and alpha) and the mu-at, a dumbbell with crescent that is also a sign of Isis. Overall, the activity was more low-key than the previous year, with the media paying scant attention to anything beyond the hoaxing contest done in July for the amusement of humans. Continued..... --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (7061) Fri 29 Jan 93 18:24 By: John Komar To: All Re: HUFON/CROPS, 9/9 St: <7060 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- @MSGID: 1:123/26 0e92499a In the U.S., reported activity also was less that last year, though reports continue to trickle in to the Center for North American Crop Circle Studies (CNACCS). Illinois was once again one of the more active states. The most dramatic formation was a dumbbell in alfalfa near Fergus Falls, Minnesota. More detailed reports will be available soon from CNACCS and the North American Institute for Crop Circle Research in Winnepeg. In closing, one final comment. An unusual bit of movement has occurred with two of the original English crop circle researchers. It is being called the "grain drain" by Rosemary Ellen Guiley. Seems that both Colin Andrews and Richard Andrews (no relation) have moved their crop circle business to America. Do they know something no one else knows? Stay tuned. =END= --- FMail 0.92 * Origin: (1:123/26) @PATH: 123/26 -- <*> Don Allen <*> 1:363/81.1 - Fidonet #1 - Homebody BBS dona@bilver.uucp - Internet 1:363/29.8 - Fidonet #2 - Gourmet Delight 88:4205/1.1 - MUFON Network 1:3607/20.2 -- Odyssey - Alabama UFO Net NSA grep food: Aviary, Ed Dames, Los Alamos - Majestic - Jason - RIIA - UN